Historical Mormon Smackdown: FARMS Edition

By John C.

A quickie (I am very busy of late):

Who do you think best exemplifies the spirit of FARMS: Jack Welch or Daniel Peterson?

Vote away!

The Idiot Mormon’s Guide to Orthodox Christianity, Part 1

By David J

Okay, as many of you know, the terminologies employed by both Mormons and orthodox Christians (hereafter “Christians” for brevity’s sake) are identical in form, but often different in meaning. Since getting the word out to our neighbors in the form of missionary work is one of the three essentials to the overall mission of the Mormon church (the other two being perfecting the saints and redeeming the dead), I thought I’d share with you some of the common vocabulary employed by both sides, but at the same time note some of the key differences.

These are all terms phrases that I noticed during my first semester of graduate school at a Protestant educational institution. When appropriate, I will flag terms as distinctly Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or what have you.

I believe that knowing some of these distinctions will create greater meaning between Mormons and Christians. As always, I encourage you to contribute some of the same similarities/differences in vocabulary that you’ve noticed!

1. Sacrament. For Christians, this term is primarily utilized as a catch-all term for what Mormons call “ordinances” (another misnomer I will discuss later). For Catholics, the sacraments are seven in number. I’m not sure why the Mormon Church now utilizes the term “sacrament” as only applicable to the Lord’s Supper, but I imagine that it is now a truncated form of, possibly, “The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper.” Since it may appear somewhat strange to our Christian brethren and sisteren to hear us saying “sacrament meeting,” perhaps we might qualify what we mean by “sacrament” when discussing it in the company of Christians.

2. Melchizedek Priesthood. This is actually a New Testament term from Hebrews 11. For most Christians, only Jesus possesses the Melchizedek Priesthood, and it can be very offensive for them to hear that we claim to possess it on a collective scale.

3. Similarly, terms like “priest,” “teacher,” and “deacon” for most Christians indicate not only some form of formal ordination before a recognized authority, but there is much more semantic weight with each of them. For us, it mostly indicates the age of the young man (and his purported worthiness) as well, e.g., a 17 year old boy would be considered part of his local priest quorum (but not in every case). Likewise, when a Christian hears us say “I’m an ordained Elder in the Mormon Church,” their assumption, in many cases (though not all), will have them believe that the elder in question has been to some form of parochial school or seminary style of training, passed certain exams and met certain requirements, and then defended himself before an ordained board of ministry of some sort. Likewise with terms such as “deacon,” “priest,” etc. Priesthood ordination is big-time for Christians.

4. Jehovah/Elohim. I almost dare not go here because of how defensive so many temple Mormons become when discussing this. But it is something that offends or causes much confusion with our Christian friends. The Mormons are pretty much alone in assuming that Jesus is a pre-incarnate Jehovah/Yahweh – something I assumed most people except the J-Dubs espoused. However, we ought to be aware that when discussing God’s name with Trinitarian Christians, they won’t see Yahweh as Jesus like most of us do (save only through Trinitarian means). He is what we would call “The Father.” If you’re interested, I can post some of the biblical (read: Hebrew language) reasons for thinking that J and E are the same dude.

5. “The Church.” When our Christian brethren and sisteren say “The Church,” they’re not always talking about their own denomination. Many times they’re referring to all of (orthodox) Christianity. When Mormons utilize the term, it almost exclusively refers only the Mormon Church. This is a handy one to know.

6. Virgin. For Christians, this term represents a woman that has not yet had sexual intercourse with anyone else from this world or any other world (sorry Ezra Benson).

7. Martin Luther. This is not “that one black guy from the 1960s,” but rather the church reformer, which the Lutheran Church now eponymously employs. He’s very important for Protestants, akin to Joseph Smith for a Mormon (although not venerated so often). He was the father of the Reformation, and I believe there’s even praise from our own general authorities for his efforts.

I Ain’t Got No Body

By John C.

Okay, enough of these posts on things that can actually have an effect on our daily lives! I need instead to delve into the mysteries, to things I can’t possibly know, and don’t need to know, you know?

I was reading 3rd Nephi recently, and finally hit the verse that I had previously assumed was mere theory within the church. It seemed like Authoritative theory, but I still thought there might be some wiggle room. Nope. This verse pretty much clears up who the God of the Old Testament was. Ok, fine, I can deal with that – it’s what I’ve been told.

But that got me thinking (oh no!) How was Jesus able to do the things he did, like creating the world and stuff, before becoming a resurrected being? Aside from Him needing to come to Earth to save us all, it doesn’t seem like He needed the ‘mortal challenge’ in order to progress. For that matter, 3rd Nephi suggests that he did the righteous smiting on them before he was resurrected. (Didn’t the darkness lift afterwards?) So, he did all of that world-changing again without a physical body?

I guess I had been led to believe that Jesus was the Firstborn of Heavenly Father, but was pretty much in the same boat as the rest of us, prior to coming to Earth. (Clearly not the case.) There was talk on another blog* about how intelligences / spirits might have been created, but it would seem that not all were created equally. Granted, we can’t all have been Saviors, but it does make me wonder how all of that happened. Perhaps one day it will all become clear. (FWIW, I can see the simple answer to this: He was a member of the Godhead, even pre-mortal.)

* I’m feel like I’m breaking some sort of Bloggernacle rule by not explicitly linking back to the referenced blog, but I really don’t remember where that was.

Teaching, Learning, the 1,000 little changes, and the nature of exaltation/atonement

By John C.

This is in response to the gauntlet that was thrown down by Geoff J (although I should note that he was only responding to my gauntlet).

In his parable of the piano, Geoff is trying to negotiate the roles of the individual spiritual agent in relation to the role of God in the Atonement and Exaltation (I am in the camp that believes (as apparently Geoff agrees) that one cannot successfully talk about one without invoking the other). Specifically, God gives everyone a piano that they could not get on their own and then God spends years and years training up the kid in piano, giving all the necessary skills, guidance, instruction, encouragement, discouragement, etc. necessary to get the orphan (us) to be as good a piano player as the instructor is. This places the responsibility for our salvation squarely on our shoulders; Although God gave us the piano as a gift, we must learn to play it individually. He cannot play it for us. (Geoff, please correct me if I am misinterpreting here).

If anyone has been following this debate (as I am sure you all are), you will note that whenever I disagree with Geoff, I initially point out that I mostly agree with him and find his parables helpful (his comments here reinforce that impression). Since patterns must be followed, I will do the same here. Taken individually, I agree with all of the sentences in the above paragraph. I just think that the sum is greater than the whole that paragraph creates.
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CallingAndElectionMadeSure (CAEMS)

By John C.

I considered tacking this onto the end of David J.’s welcome post (of which I am trying not to be covetous of his responses.)

John C. made an allusion to my unusual religious upbringing; well, here it will be revealed in this system of things. (hint)

When reading about the Second Anointing, the topic of “Calling and Election made sure” featured prominently. When I was investigating the church, I had heard the phrase, and it sounded pretty much like the topic title. All one word and completely incomprehensible. (Much like FamilyHomeEvening.) When I got someone to explain it to me, it sounded very similar to a concept in the religion I had grown up in. In that religion, certain people (usually in leadership) would get a special feeling that they had been chosen to be a special servant of God and sit at his right hand. In other words, they would get to be one of the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation (Chap 14) . Now, this “special feeling”, in LDS terms, could be likened to the Holy Ghost, which it sounds like modern interpretations of the Second Anointing are tending towards.

So, having this background, I wondered if the CAEMS might refer to the 144,000 for us, too. John C. thought not.

In case it’s not really obvious, I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. I was quite active until I was about 14 or so, when I began to question some of the doctrines that didn’t really make sense. Unable to get any good answers from them, I felt the need to seek elsewhere, which ended me up here. =)

So, any speculation, comments, words of wisdom on the similarities of these two versions of Heavenly Selection? I can’t actually believe that it is THE Holy Ghost visiting the Witnesses, so what gives?

Metaphorical Mormon Smackdown: Iron Rod Edition!

By John C.

Well, as usual, my inspiration for posts comes from BCC. I was going to discuss the merits of the seer stone vs. the Urim and Thummim, but I just wasn’t as inspired as I was by this idea. Go with me on it.

What metaphor more accurately describes the Iron Rod from 1st Nephi 8: a handrail or a divining rod?

Hand rail: well, the thing extends along a river and a path and people are supposed to hold onto it. What more do you want?

Divining Rod: (I admit I am cribbing this idea from this) I have personally long been unsatisfied with the hand rail approach (do we have any evidence of these in the ANE?). However, we do have evidence of the use of arrows and sticks as forms of divination.

Why is this an issue? Because if the divining rod metaphor is the one that we should be using, doesn’t it make the dichotomy between “Iron Rod” and “Liahona” Mormons discussed here a bit pointless?

Vote and comment below.

Hagia Sophia

By John C.

When we were considering what to name our first child, whom we thought would be a girl, we briefly discussed the name Sophia. I like the name for what it means and also for the biblical (and possible Canaanite) imagery surrounding it. My wife, Tana, did not particularly like the name however. When I asked why, she responded that she could see kids teasing our future child, taunting with names like “Hagia Sophia, Hagia Sophia”.

After some time and some perspective, she withdrew her objections and we gave the name to our second child (although Tana does prefer the Sofia spelling).

In the moment, Tana did not stop to think about the implications of her fears. The likelihood of a schoolyard bully integrating the name of a cathedral in Byzantium into an insult is minimal. Tana simply didn’t like the name at the time and this was the reason that popped into her exceptionally well-educated head.
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Honor Among Warriors, Zerahemnah

By John C.

So, I’m going through the Book of Mormon in response to President Hinckley’s Challenge, and I came across this passage this weekend.

(Alma 44:8 )
And now it came to pass that when Zerahemnah had heard these sayings he came forth and delivered up his sword and his cimeter, and his bow into the hands of Moroni, and said unto him: Behold, here are our weapons of war; we will deliver them up unto you, but we will not suffer ourselves to take an oath unto you, which we know that we shall break, and also our children; but take our weapons of war, and suffer that we may depart into the wilderness; otherwise we will retain our swords, and we will perish or conquer.

I realize that Moroni is bound by his oath to Zerahemnah when he offers terms for surrender, but it seems rather honorable for Z. to not be willing to swear an oath “which we know that we shall break.” Given the history of the Lamanites, this seems likely.

In a way, it seems that killing Z. and his army has become an exercise in hunting a dangerous natural predator. Sharks attack people at the beach, not because they are mean or evil, but because it’s their nature. Somehow, despite Zarahemnah’s ill-fated personal attack on Moroni, I can’t help but feel a little sorry for him. He was just acting according to his nature. (Such as it was, we all have choices.)

Any thoughts on this?

My apologies that this is not nearly as deep and philosophical as John C.’s posts, but hey, sometimes lighter is good. =)

Introducing FaithHopeLove

By John C.

Well, we’re growing today. I would also ask you to give a warm welcome to Jon (aka FaithHopeLove). He is an old friend of the family with an interesting religious past (which I will let him reveal in due time). He is what he had to say by way of introduction:

My name is Jon (no H) and I have known John C. for more than 20 years.
The earliest memory I have of him is that he refused to eat tomatoes
because he thought they were gross. Now, it appears that he’ll eat
just about anything.

I’m on the cusp of 35, married, no children, but three beautiful
cats. I’ve lived in Utah for 12 years, and that’s about 12 years too
long for me. I long to be back in the tropics of Florida, but, alas,
my wife has strong ties to family here.

In case you were wondering, my username comes from an album
title by the progressive rock band, King’s X.

Please welcome FHL to FPR.

Introducing David J

By John C.

Faith-promoting Rumor is pleased to announce the addition of David J to our blog. He will post occasionally on topics of import to him and, as always, he must agree with me on whatever I write. Here he is in his own words:

I grew up in California, served in Brazil, hold a B.S. in Accounting and decided to switch gears and study Hebrew Bible in 2003. I have two kids (1 each). When not studying, I enjoy back-country backpacking, watching professional football, and playing racquetball. I don’t like American cars, brown carpet, and Microsoft products (I have all 3).

Please make him feel welcome here in our little corner of the Bloggernacle.

Idle speculation

By John C.

So, now that Bannergate is over (and really, what more is there to say after this), let’s move on to outing the other spectacular anonymous star of the bloggernacle: The Bloggernacle Snarker! (sorry, anonymoose and A.Nonny.Mouse).

The Snarker is harder to track down than the BoH people in part because the Snarker only rarely comments on other blogs. In fact, the only time that I know of is when the Snarker emphatically denied being Kurt (after Kurt emphatically denied being the Snarker(or did he)).

Due to Kurt’s obsession with Steve’s honesty (or, I should say, lack thereof), I will take him at his word (for now, at least). I have an idea as to who the Snarker could be, but I think that I will stick my speculations in the comments.

Okay, Bloggernacle, since we must not have secrets, who is the Snarker?