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	<title>Comments on: The Perils of Parallel-o-Mania</title>
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	<description>exploring Mormon thought, culture, and texts</description>
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		<title>By: Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; My Nacle Notebook 2008: Interesting Comments</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-19806</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; My Nacle Notebook 2008: Interesting Comments</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] comment on smallaxe’s post The Perils of Parallel-o-Mania at Faith-Promoting [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comment on smallaxe’s post The Perils of Parallel-o-Mania at Faith-Promoting [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Serapion on Addition to Scripture &#171; The Sunday Page</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-11733</link>
		<dc:creator>Serapion on Addition to Scripture &#171; The Sunday Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] lest anyone jump on me for &#8220;parallel-o-mania,&#8221; I bring up these parallels only to note 1) that the similarity exists, and 2) to put forth [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lest anyone jump on me for &#8220;parallel-o-mania,&#8221; I bring up these parallels only to note 1) that the similarity exists, and 2) to put forth [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8356</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8356</guid>
		<description>Well I think it undeniable he&#039;s a structuralist.  I say he was a psychological structuralist due to his similarity to Eliadi, Campbell and others.  Typically the difference is pointed to that Nibley adopts a literalist view of scripture so all information is diffusionist in nature.  (i.e. he&#039;s in the diffusionist camp rather than the psychological camp)  My view is that the main difference of the diffusionists and psychologists of the era is merely the grounds they see for structural parallels.  The methadologies (and methadological mistakes) are largely the same.  (IMO - and of course I&#039;m painting with a broad paintbrush)

What, to me, moves Nibley from the diffusionist camp to the psychologist camp is his writings on the Mantics.  Now he is adopting a kind of platonism towards revelation in his conception of the Mantics.  But frankly a lot of the psychologists of the era were adopting something similar.  The kind of psychological reductionism we take for granted today was just developing then.  (Remembers Skinner was just emerging and many of these folks didn&#039;t like the behavioralists )

Now if you want something more beyond that I don&#039;t have time to do too much research (beyond &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/clark/reading3.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the reading club&lt;/a&gt; on Nibley on the Mantics&lt;/a&gt; from a few years back)

The main counterargument against my move is to argue that Nibley only thought revelation (and thus the Mantic) came within the Church.  That is his gnosticism was tied up with LDS conceptions of authority.  While I think there is an element of that I think it pretty clear he felt anyone could receive revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I think it undeniable he&#8217;s a structuralist.  I say he was a psychological structuralist due to his similarity to Eliadi, Campbell and others.  Typically the difference is pointed to that Nibley adopts a literalist view of scripture so all information is diffusionist in nature.  (i.e. he&#8217;s in the diffusionist camp rather than the psychological camp)  My view is that the main difference of the diffusionists and psychologists of the era is merely the grounds they see for structural parallels.  The methadologies (and methadological mistakes) are largely the same.  (IMO &#8211; and of course I&#8217;m painting with a broad paintbrush)</p>
<p>What, to me, moves Nibley from the diffusionist camp to the psychologist camp is his writings on the Mantics.  Now he is adopting a kind of platonism towards revelation in his conception of the Mantics.  But frankly a lot of the psychologists of the era were adopting something similar.  The kind of psychological reductionism we take for granted today was just developing then.  (Remembers Skinner was just emerging and many of these folks didn&#8217;t like the behavioralists )</p>
<p>Now if you want something more beyond that I don&#8217;t have time to do too much research (beyond <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/clark/reading3.html" rel="nofollow">the reading club</a> on Nibley on the Mantics from a few years back)</p>
<p>The main counterargument against my move is to argue that Nibley only thought revelation (and thus the Mantic) came within the Church.  That is his gnosticism was tied up with LDS conceptions of authority.  While I think there is an element of that I think it pretty clear he felt anyone could receive revelation.</p>
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		<title>By: SmallAxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8355</link>
		<dc:creator>SmallAxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; I’ve long thought Nibley ought be taken in that category both because of the period of his training but also his methodology is similar. While I don’t think these figures are taken that seriously anymore - often due to big methadological problems (decontextualizing) there is something to be said for the stance. That is if there are common cognitive structures in human beings we ought expect those to be reflected in our oral narratives, rituals, etc. &lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s been a while since I&#039;ve read any Nibley, but the odd thing is that I&#039;ve never gotten the sense that he was a &quot;psychological structuralist&quot;, as you call it (perhaps I&#039;d go with &quot;cognitive realist&quot;, others such as Edward Slingerland suggest &quot;embodied realist&quot;). Perhaps you, or anyone else, can provide something from Nibley to substantiate this. Coincidentally, my sense is that the kind thinking you refer to going on in the 40s-60s has reemerged in some aspects of cognitive science. I&#039;m thinking here of Pinker, and Lakoff and Johnson (although in radically different ways).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> I’ve long thought Nibley ought be taken in that category both because of the period of his training but also his methodology is similar. While I don’t think these figures are taken that seriously anymore &#8211; often due to big methadological problems (decontextualizing) there is something to be said for the stance. That is if there are common cognitive structures in human beings we ought expect those to be reflected in our oral narratives, rituals, etc. </i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s been a while since I&#8217;ve read any Nibley, but the odd thing is that I&#8217;ve never gotten the sense that he was a &#8220;psychological structuralist&#8221;, as you call it (perhaps I&#8217;d go with &#8220;cognitive realist&#8221;, others such as Edward Slingerland suggest &#8220;embodied realist&#8221;). Perhaps you, or anyone else, can provide something from Nibley to substantiate this. Coincidentally, my sense is that the kind thinking you refer to going on in the 40s-60s has reemerged in some aspects of cognitive science. I&#8217;m thinking here of Pinker, and Lakoff and Johnson (although in radically different ways).</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8353</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8353</guid>
		<description>I think Small Axe&#039;s point in 13 is well made.  I think the problem is that there are compelling reasons to think though that temple parallels in the near east tell us something significant.  That&#039;s because (1) the temple purports to have some genealogical connection to that era; (2) our western tradition including masonry, hermeticism, etc. traces to that area and era; (3) there were people with the gospel in some form in that place.

When one moves to China and the surrounding locals things become more tricky because (1) there is no purported revelation of the temple there; (2) it is far more alien to the western tradition; and (3) we don&#039;t know how many had the gospel as we understand it.

In addition to all this though are what for lack of a better term I&#039;ll call the psychological structuralists.  This would include Jung, Campbell, and others.  (Roughly the scholarship from the 40&#039;s through the 60&#039;s)  These people see the parallels because they believe they reflect some cognitive structure (ignoring for the moment what they considered the mind to be).   I&#039;ve long thought Nibley ought be taken in that category both because of the period of his training but also his methodology is similar.  While I don&#039;t think these figures are taken that seriously anymore - often due to big methadological problems (decontextualizing) there is something to be said for the stance.  That is if there are common cognitive structures in human beings &lt;i&gt;we ought expect those to be reflected in our oral narratives, rituals, etc.&lt;/i&gt;

From and LDS stance though if there is a spirit with some level of a veil of forgetfulness then the notion of this collective unconscious found in the psychological structuralists will manifest itself as a kind of repressed remembrance of a premortal life manifesting itself in human behavior.   Now making the move from the general claim to the claim that &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; structure is significant will be much more problematic.  But I think one should be careful here.

I should also note that while a lot see Nibley&#039;s parallels as evidence a perhaps too naive and optimistic diffusionism I think this more Freudean like element is at least as present.  Indeed if you look at his writings on the Manic vs. Sophist you&#039;ll see that provides the philosophical ground for his structuralism and ends up being fairly similar to Freud or Jung with even more of a Platonic thrust.  (Hardly uncommon in the structuralism of the era)  Even if Nibley ultimately has a different ontology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Small Axe&#8217;s point in 13 is well made.  I think the problem is that there are compelling reasons to think though that temple parallels in the near east tell us something significant.  That&#8217;s because (1) the temple purports to have some genealogical connection to that era; (2) our western tradition including masonry, hermeticism, etc. traces to that area and era; (3) there were people with the gospel in some form in that place.</p>
<p>When one moves to China and the surrounding locals things become more tricky because (1) there is no purported revelation of the temple there; (2) it is far more alien to the western tradition; and (3) we don&#8217;t know how many had the gospel as we understand it.</p>
<p>In addition to all this though are what for lack of a better term I&#8217;ll call the psychological structuralists.  This would include Jung, Campbell, and others.  (Roughly the scholarship from the 40&#8217;s through the 60&#8217;s)  These people see the parallels because they believe they reflect some cognitive structure (ignoring for the moment what they considered the mind to be).   I&#8217;ve long thought Nibley ought be taken in that category both because of the period of his training but also his methodology is similar.  While I don&#8217;t think these figures are taken that seriously anymore &#8211; often due to big methadological problems (decontextualizing) there is something to be said for the stance.  That is if there are common cognitive structures in human beings <i>we ought expect those to be reflected in our oral narratives, rituals, etc.</i></p>
<p>From and LDS stance though if there is a spirit with some level of a veil of forgetfulness then the notion of this collective unconscious found in the psychological structuralists will manifest itself as a kind of repressed remembrance of a premortal life manifesting itself in human behavior.   Now making the move from the general claim to the claim that <i>this</i> structure is significant will be much more problematic.  But I think one should be careful here.</p>
<p>I should also note that while a lot see Nibley&#8217;s parallels as evidence a perhaps too naive and optimistic diffusionism I think this more Freudean like element is at least as present.  Indeed if you look at his writings on the Manic vs. Sophist you&#8217;ll see that provides the philosophical ground for his structuralism and ends up being fairly similar to Freud or Jung with even more of a Platonic thrust.  (Hardly uncommon in the structuralism of the era)  Even if Nibley ultimately has a different ontology.</p>
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		<title>By: smallaxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8354</link>
		<dc:creator>smallaxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8354</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Would a simplified summary be; a couscous or unconscious bias on the part of the author that results in comparing without contrasting? &lt;/i&gt;

This isn&#039;t really about comparing without contrasting. I think most &quot;comparative&quot; accounts either explicitly handle contrasting as well, or at least account for differences (even if the explanation is that they&#039;ve &quot;fallen away from the truth&quot;). It&#039;s more about examining the implications of our biases and working to make our unconscious &quot;biases&quot;, more conscious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Would a simplified summary be; a couscous or unconscious bias on the part of the author that results in comparing without contrasting? </i></p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t really about comparing without contrasting. I think most &#8220;comparative&#8221; accounts either explicitly handle contrasting as well, or at least account for differences (even if the explanation is that they&#8217;ve &#8220;fallen away from the truth&#8221;). It&#8217;s more about examining the implications of our biases and working to make our unconscious &#8220;biases&#8221;, more conscious.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8352</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8352</guid>
		<description>Sounds delicious!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds delicious!</p>
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		<title>By: Nitsav</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8351</link>
		<dc:creator>Nitsav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8351</guid>
		<description>I fully admit to having a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/favorite/chiccous.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;couscous &lt;/a&gt;bias, particularly with some nice harissa ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully admit to having a <a href="http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/favorite/chiccous.htm" rel="nofollow">couscous </a>bias, particularly with some nice harissa <img src='http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8350</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=900#comment-8350</guid>
		<description>SmallAxe,
Excellent post!

Would a simplified summary be; a couscous or unconscious bias on the part of the author that results in comparing without contrasting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SmallAxe,<br />
Excellent post!</p>
<p>Would a simplified summary be; a couscous or unconscious bias on the part of the author that results in comparing without contrasting?</p>
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		<title>By: smallaxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/the-perils-of-parallel-o-mania/#comment-8349</link>
		<dc:creator>smallaxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt; As a wise professor told me not too long ago, “The problem with these parallels is that they never intersect, that is why they are parallel.”  &lt;/i&gt;

I take it this professor never heard of Non-Euclidean geometry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> As a wise professor told me not too long ago, “The problem with these parallels is that they never intersect, that is why they are parallel.”  </i></p>
<p>I take it this professor never heard of Non-Euclidean geometry:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry</a></p>
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