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	<title>Comments on: Where we succeed: Mormon Pedagogy and Fowler&#8217;s Stages of Faith, Part Two</title>
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	<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/</link>
	<description>exploring Mormon thought, culture, and texts</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8333</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8333</guid>
		<description>David, just a note, despite my completely disagreeing with Fowler I do enjoy these posts.  People disagreeing politiely is what makes blogs as good as tehy are.  So I hope you keep it up.  While I disagree pretty vehemently with Fowler I think there are tangents that arise in the discussion that are very useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, just a note, despite my completely disagreeing with Fowler I do enjoy these posts.  People disagreeing politiely is what makes blogs as good as tehy are.  So I hope you keep it up.  While I disagree pretty vehemently with Fowler I think there are tangents that arise in the discussion that are very useful.</p>
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		<title>By: SmallAxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8332</link>
		<dc:creator>SmallAxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 03:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8332</guid>
		<description>Let me chime in really briefly here. First of all, please do keep up this series. I&#039;ve been meaning to comment since the first post, but time usually gets the best of me (I can barely keep up with my own threads!). One of the interesting things you&#039;ll find at FPR is that the best posts sometimes generate the least discussion.

Secondly, I think the &quot;success&quot; of a theory such as Kolhberg&#039;s or Fowler&#039;s depends on the degree in which his less substantiated claims are meant heuristically. In other words, I find it highly problematic if his claim were, &quot;All human beings tend to develop in these stages&quot; (and not having read him, I&#039;m not sure if his claim is this strong); but much less problematic if he&#039;s saying, &quot;We can use these stages as a way of talking about human development.&quot; The latter I see more as a tool with which to attend to analysis. The former I see as the result of sustained analysis.  Assuming that one is willing to abandon the tool if proven to be unhelpful in analysis, I see no problem with using it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me chime in really briefly here. First of all, please do keep up this series. I&#8217;ve been meaning to comment since the first post, but time usually gets the best of me (I can barely keep up with my own threads!). One of the interesting things you&#8217;ll find at FPR is that the best posts sometimes generate the least discussion.</p>
<p>Secondly, I think the &#8220;success&#8221; of a theory such as Kolhberg&#8217;s or Fowler&#8217;s depends on the degree in which his less substantiated claims are meant heuristically. In other words, I find it highly problematic if his claim were, &#8220;All human beings tend to develop in these stages&#8221; (and not having read him, I&#8217;m not sure if his claim is this strong); but much less problematic if he&#8217;s saying, &#8220;We can use these stages as a way of talking about human development.&#8221; The latter I see more as a tool with which to attend to analysis. The former I see as the result of sustained analysis.  Assuming that one is willing to abandon the tool if proven to be unhelpful in analysis, I see no problem with using it.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8331</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8331</guid>
		<description>&quot;I was going to talk about missions in my third post. However, the tepid response these posts are generating makes me think no one really cares, so why bother.&quot;

I have nothing to add, but will say I have found this subject fascinating.  I thought I&#039;d speak up by way of encouragement.  Keep it coming, I say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I was going to talk about missions in my third post. However, the tepid response these posts are generating makes me think no one really cares, so why bother.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have nothing to add, but will say I have found this subject fascinating.  I thought I&#8217;d speak up by way of encouragement.  Keep it coming, I say!</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8330</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8330</guid>
		<description>For the record I think there is plenty of good empirical social science.  However I don&#039;t find the rest terribly trustworthy.  If we&#039;re &lt;i&gt;using it&lt;/i&gt; to fix problems then color me doubly skeptical for the same reason I&#039;m very skeptical of alternative medicine and people making outlandish claims for vitamins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record I think there is plenty of good empirical social science.  However I don&#8217;t find the rest terribly trustworthy.  If we&#8217;re <i>using it</i> to fix problems then color me doubly skeptical for the same reason I&#8217;m very skeptical of alternative medicine and people making outlandish claims for vitamins.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8329</link>
		<dc:creator>BHodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8329</guid>
		<description>Clark, I think you are trying to force too much of an empiricists view onto social science. I don&#039;t think Fowler&#039;s stages can be quantified, and I don&#039;t view them as such a solid continuum as he presents them, but the do provide a useful model imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, I think you are trying to force too much of an empiricists view onto social science. I don&#8217;t think Fowler&#8217;s stages can be quantified, and I don&#8217;t view them as such a solid continuum as he presents them, but the do provide a useful model imo.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8328</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8328</guid>
		<description>Whoops.  &lt;i&gt;Ought &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; be acceptable&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops.  <i>Ought <b>not</b> be acceptable</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8327</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8327</guid>
		<description>But it &lt;i&gt;ought be&lt;/i&gt; acceptable.  We wouldn&#039;t trust a doctor who behaved this way.  (Well, judging by the rise of &quot;alternative medicine&quot; many do)  Why should it be acceptable here?  There&#039;s a kind of ends justifies the means justification that I find distasteful since the ends and means are so uncertain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it <i>ought be</i> acceptable.  We wouldn&#8217;t trust a doctor who behaved this way.  (Well, judging by the rise of &#8220;alternative medicine&#8221; many do)  Why should it be acceptable here?  There&#8217;s a kind of ends justifies the means justification that I find distasteful since the ends and means are so uncertain.</p>
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		<title>By: David Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8326</link>
		<dc:creator>David Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8326</guid>
		<description>Clark,

&lt;i&gt;Why not just say we don’t know rather than developing an extensive model based upon loose rigor and then using that to make claims?&lt;/i&gt;

Because the social sciences deal with deeply human questions.  The kinds of questions where &quot;we don&#039;t know&quot; is simply not acceptable.  Saying &quot;we don&#039;t know&quot; to a question like, &quot;Does the Higgs boson exist?&quot; doesn&#039;t affect anyone.

Saying &quot;we don&#039;t know&quot; to questions like &quot;Why is that family falling apart?&quot; or &quot;Why is that church growing so fast while mine is stagnant?&quot; or &quot;Why is my faith changing, am I in apostacy?&quot; is simply not acceptable.  They require understanding, an answer, and perhaps a solution.  Saying &quot;we don&#039;t know&quot; leads either to quietism or to people offering solutions based on no rigor and no models.  I&#039;d prefer at least some attempt at objectivity rather than none.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p><i>Why not just say we don’t know rather than developing an extensive model based upon loose rigor and then using that to make claims?</i></p>
<p>Because the social sciences deal with deeply human questions.  The kinds of questions where &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; is simply not acceptable.  Saying &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; to a question like, &#8220;Does the Higgs boson exist?&#8221; doesn&#8217;t affect anyone.</p>
<p>Saying &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; to questions like &#8220;Why is that family falling apart?&#8221; or &#8220;Why is that church growing so fast while mine is stagnant?&#8221; or &#8220;Why is my faith changing, am I in apostacy?&#8221; is simply not acceptable.  They require understanding, an answer, and perhaps a solution.  Saying &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; leads either to quietism or to people offering solutions based on no rigor and no models.  I&#8217;d prefer at least some attempt at objectivity rather than none.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8325</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8325</guid>
		<description>I think Fowler&#039;s use is problematic.  The problem is that &quot;empirical as possible&quot; often isn&#039;t terribly empirical.  Maybe it&#039;s my training in the hard sciences but I always found the excuses that its the best we can do deeply problematic.  There&#039;s lots of stuff like that in physics, for instance.  The difference is that physicists don&#039;t take the claims terribly seriously whereas sometimes in the softer sciences they take a life of their own.

Why not just say we don&#039;t know rather than developing an extensive model based upon loose rigor and then &lt;i&gt;using&lt;/i&gt; that to make claims?

Sorry, I probably shouldn&#039;t start down that road as I just don&#039;t have time to have that argument.  It&#039;s a problem I have with &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; work in the social sciences though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Fowler&#8217;s use is problematic.  The problem is that &#8220;empirical as possible&#8221; often isn&#8217;t terribly empirical.  Maybe it&#8217;s my training in the hard sciences but I always found the excuses that its the best we can do deeply problematic.  There&#8217;s lots of stuff like that in physics, for instance.  The difference is that physicists don&#8217;t take the claims terribly seriously whereas sometimes in the softer sciences they take a life of their own.</p>
<p>Why not just say we don&#8217;t know rather than developing an extensive model based upon loose rigor and then <i>using</i> that to make claims?</p>
<p>Sorry, I probably shouldn&#8217;t start down that road as I just don&#8217;t have time to have that argument.  It&#8217;s a problem I have with <i>some</i> work in the social sciences though.</p>
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		<title>By: David Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/09/where-we-succeed-mormon-pedagogy-and-fowlers-stages-of-faith-part-two/#comment-8324</link>
		<dc:creator>David Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=904#comment-8324</guid>
		<description>Clark,

Do you discount the developmental theories of Kohlberg and Piaget or do you single out Fowler&#039;s theory?

I ask because I think given the subject matter Fowler has made attempts to make it as empirical as possible, unlike say Freud or Erikson who don&#039;t really try and make their developmental theories empirical in any way.  Do you think that there is a way to make Fowler&#039;s theory more rigorous or does it resist rigor and thus should be abandoned &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt;?

Given the nature of the subject I think that clinical interviews with follow ups are the best one can hope for, which is what Fowler has done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p>Do you discount the developmental theories of Kohlberg and Piaget or do you single out Fowler&#8217;s theory?</p>
<p>I ask because I think given the subject matter Fowler has made attempts to make it as empirical as possible, unlike say Freud or Erikson who don&#8217;t really try and make their developmental theories empirical in any way.  Do you think that there is a way to make Fowler&#8217;s theory more rigorous or does it resist rigor and thus should be abandoned <i>a priori</i>?</p>
<p>Given the nature of the subject I think that clinical interviews with follow ups are the best one can hope for, which is what Fowler has done.</p>
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