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	<title>Comments on: A Feminist Interpretation of Jesus&#8217; Sayings Concerning (no?) Marriage in Heaven</title>
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	<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/</link>
	<description>exploring Mormon thought, culture, and texts</description>
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		<title>By: Bridget Jack Meyers</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-12732</link>
		<dc:creator>Bridget Jack Meyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-12732</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;TYD&lt;/strong&gt; ~ Interesting post. I actually did read it when you first posted it, but was busy at the time and didn&#039;t have time to comment. 

ESF&#039;s interpretation is interesting, but I&#039;d agree with TT that it seems like a bit of a stretch for the reasons he listed.

My biggest concern with applying her interpretation to Mormonism would be that I think current church teachings on the afterlife make it out to be unquestionably patriarchal, though we can hope the church changes on that in the future. There is a strong framework within the LDS church for an egalitarian complementarianism (as opposed to what the evangelical world usually calls &quot;complementarianism,&quot; which really isn&#039;t), and that could be applied to both real life and teachings on the afterlife someday. 

On female angels, some Christians today interpret Zechariah 5:9 as describing female angels: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, two women coming forward! The wind was in their wings. They had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. (ESV)&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Unfortunately, I don&#039;t know if any surviving ancient commentators agreed with that interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>TYD</strong> ~ Interesting post. I actually did read it when you first posted it, but was busy at the time and didn&#8217;t have time to comment. </p>
<p>ESF&#8217;s interpretation is interesting, but I&#8217;d agree with TT that it seems like a bit of a stretch for the reasons he listed.</p>
<p>My biggest concern with applying her interpretation to Mormonism would be that I think current church teachings on the afterlife make it out to be unquestionably patriarchal, though we can hope the church changes on that in the future. There is a strong framework within the LDS church for an egalitarian complementarianism (as opposed to what the evangelical world usually calls &#8220;complementarianism,&#8221; which really isn&#8217;t), and that could be applied to both real life and teachings on the afterlife someday. </p>
<p>On female angels, some Christians today interpret Zechariah 5:9 as describing female angels: </p>
<blockquote><p>Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, two women coming forward! The wind was in their wings. They had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. (ESV)</p></blockquote>
<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t know if any surviving ancient commentators agreed with that interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: m&#38;m</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11619</link>
		<dc:creator>m&#38;m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 03:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11619</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I would point out that Adam was “face to face” with God in the J story of creation (again, Gen. 2.4b ff.), yet God still deemed it appropriate for him to have a wife as an equal partner.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ve also been intrigued at considering the possibility that when God talked about the necessity of man &#039;leaving father and mother&#039; to marry, that Adam&#039;s father and mother were Heavenly Parents. Probably not a new notion, and I have no idea if it&#039;s a notion that holds water, but it&#039;s something I have wondered about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I would point out that Adam was “face to face” with God in the J story of creation (again, Gen. 2.4b ff.), yet God still deemed it appropriate for him to have a wife as an equal partner.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also been intrigued at considering the possibility that when God talked about the necessity of man &#8216;leaving father and mother&#8217; to marry, that Adam&#8217;s father and mother were Heavenly Parents. Probably not a new notion, and I have no idea if it&#8217;s a notion that holds water, but it&#8217;s something I have wondered about.</p>
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		<title>By: The Yellow Dart</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11607</link>
		<dc:creator>The Yellow Dart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 22:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11607</guid>
		<description>Great comments all, thanks for your participation!

Mrs. Mornis,

Thanks for stopping by! :-) First, I think it is relevant that at least some texts in antiquity seem to indicate that angelic beings had sex and/or sexual abilities (see TT&#039;s comment just above, for instance).  I have blogged, for instance, on Genesis 6, which states that the members of the divine council (later interpreted as angels, but originally they were gods) mated with human women.  This tradition was then later expanded upon in the book of Enoch.  See my post here:

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/wait-thats-in-the-bible-celestial-sex/

Although I also believe with you that God in a significant sense is a community of three divine persons, I don&#039;t believe that this is a teaching found in the Hebrew Bible (or Second Temple Judaism, or the New Testament really), and so I don&#039;t think it can factor into a historical-critical interpretation of what the the P (Gen. 1.1-2.4a) and J (Gen. 2.4b ff.) stories of creation meant.  God in the Hebrew Bible is simply seen as one divine person, not three persons in one God.  See my posts on this subject here:

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/listen-o-israel-yahweh-is-our-god-yahweh-is-one%E2%80%9D-does-the-bible-teach-radical-monotheism/

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/the-divine-council/

Finally, you said:

&quot;Once we are in Heaven, we are told we will be face to face with God. Therefore, is it really necessary to continue marriage?&quot;

I would point out that Adam was &quot;face to face&quot; with God in the J story of creation (again, Gen. 2.4b ff.), yet God still deemed it appropriate for him to have a wife as an equal partner. I can see no reason as to why marriage, sexuality, and sexual differentiation is theologically inappropriate in the next life &lt;em&gt;in se&lt;/em&gt; if one accepts that it was/is deemed appropriate and positive by God for humankind in his/her state before expulsion from the garden of Eden, as well as in this life.

(P.S. I have several posts on the creation stories and separating sources (i.e., P and J).  They can be found here:

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/creation-in-genesis-1-3-part-4-the-heavenly-council/

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/genesis-1-3-and-the-documentary-hypothesis-again/ )

---

TT,

I also can&#039;t think of any texts that specifically mention traditions of female angelic beings.  I wonder, however, given the textual evidence from antiquity that seems to indicate that at least some angelic beings were sexually male (and sexually active!), if this silence is simply on account of the fact that the few relevant texts which we have access to are typically quite androcentric and patriarchal in focus, content, and tone. 

I would also like to ask that, if you accept this controversy-dialogue between Jesus and the Sadducees as an authentic Jesus saying/tradition, how an interpretation of this story that posits that Jesus believes in the elimination of sexuality and sexual differentiation could be appropriated for the LDS tradition and its belief in eternal marriage, etc.

Best wishes,

TYD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comments all, thanks for your participation!</p>
<p>Mrs. Mornis,</p>
<p>Thanks for stopping by! <img src='http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  First, I think it is relevant that at least some texts in antiquity seem to indicate that angelic beings had sex and/or sexual abilities (see TT&#8217;s comment just above, for instance).  I have blogged, for instance, on Genesis 6, which states that the members of the divine council (later interpreted as angels, but originally they were gods) mated with human women.  This tradition was then later expanded upon in the book of Enoch.  See my post here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/wait-thats-in-the-bible-celestial-sex/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/wait-thats-in-the-bible-celestial-sex/</a></p>
<p>Although I also believe with you that God in a significant sense is a community of three divine persons, I don&#8217;t believe that this is a teaching found in the Hebrew Bible (or Second Temple Judaism, or the New Testament really), and so I don&#8217;t think it can factor into a historical-critical interpretation of what the the P (Gen. 1.1-2.4a) and J (Gen. 2.4b ff.) stories of creation meant.  God in the Hebrew Bible is simply seen as one divine person, not three persons in one God.  See my posts on this subject here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/listen-o-israel-yahweh-is-our-god-yahweh-is-one%E2%80%9D-does-the-bible-teach-radical-monotheism/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/listen-o-israel-yahweh-is-our-god-yahweh-is-one%E2%80%9D-does-the-bible-teach-radical-monotheism/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/the-divine-council/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/the-divine-council/</a></p>
<p>Finally, you said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Once we are in Heaven, we are told we will be face to face with God. Therefore, is it really necessary to continue marriage?&#8221;</p>
<p>I would point out that Adam was &#8220;face to face&#8221; with God in the J story of creation (again, Gen. 2.4b ff.), yet God still deemed it appropriate for him to have a wife as an equal partner. I can see no reason as to why marriage, sexuality, and sexual differentiation is theologically inappropriate in the next life <em>in se</em> if one accepts that it was/is deemed appropriate and positive by God for humankind in his/her state before expulsion from the garden of Eden, as well as in this life.</p>
<p>(P.S. I have several posts on the creation stories and separating sources (i.e., P and J).  They can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/creation-in-genesis-1-3-part-4-the-heavenly-council/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/02/creation-in-genesis-1-3-part-4-the-heavenly-council/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/genesis-1-3-and-the-documentary-hypothesis-again/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/12/genesis-1-3-and-the-documentary-hypothesis-again/</a> )</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>TT,</p>
<p>I also can&#8217;t think of any texts that specifically mention traditions of female angelic beings.  I wonder, however, given the textual evidence from antiquity that seems to indicate that at least some angelic beings were sexually male (and sexually active!), if this silence is simply on account of the fact that the few relevant texts which we have access to are typically quite androcentric and patriarchal in focus, content, and tone. </p>
<p>I would also like to ask that, if you accept this controversy-dialogue between Jesus and the Sadducees as an authentic Jesus saying/tradition, how an interpretation of this story that posits that Jesus believes in the elimination of sexuality and sexual differentiation could be appropriated for the LDS tradition and its belief in eternal marriage, etc.</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>TYD</p>
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		<title>By: David Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11604</link>
		<dc:creator>David Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 21:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11604</guid>
		<description>If one takes a more apocalyptic view of Jesus&#039; teaching there is no conflict between this teaching and LDS teaching.  In that case the kingdom is an earthly kingdom in the here and now, as soon as the Son of Man made it all happen (really soon!).  On that interpretation Jesus would be talking about equality in that kingdom, which would be totally unrelated to any kingdom after death.  In that case marriage after death would be totally unrelated to an equality based marriage in the post Son of Man kingdom on Earth.

The only problem with that interpretation is that it never happened...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one takes a more apocalyptic view of Jesus&#8217; teaching there is no conflict between this teaching and LDS teaching.  In that case the kingdom is an earthly kingdom in the here and now, as soon as the Son of Man made it all happen (really soon!).  On that interpretation Jesus would be talking about equality in that kingdom, which would be totally unrelated to any kingdom after death.  In that case marriage after death would be totally unrelated to an equality based marriage in the post Son of Man kingdom on Earth.</p>
<p>The only problem with that interpretation is that it never happened&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11600</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 20:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11600</guid>
		<description>I actually disagree with ESF on this point that &quot;angels in heaven&quot; implies sexual difference without sexual hierarchy.  While there is one passage in Jubiliees that says that angels are circumcized, and some ancient Hebrew traditions in Ezekiel about angels covering their &quot;feet,&quot; I am not aware of any traditions about female angels in antiquity.  I think that the passage is not about the displacement of patriarchal marriage in the eschatological community, but the lack of sexuality and sexual difference.  And it turns out that is exactly how ancient Christians interpreted it.  
That is not to say that ESF&#039;s reading isn&#039;t a perfectly acceptable one, and one that I think Mormonism can appropriate because we accept that sexual difference persists, and because I don&#039;t see much need for patriarchal marriage in heaven, at least not in a way that resembles first century Judean notions of patriarchal marriage.  But that is not to say that this is &quot;what it means.&quot;  (Though there are some complicated hermeneutical moves that ESF makes to be able to make that kind of claim.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually disagree with ESF on this point that &#8220;angels in heaven&#8221; implies sexual difference without sexual hierarchy.  While there is one passage in Jubiliees that says that angels are circumcized, and some ancient Hebrew traditions in Ezekiel about angels covering their &#8220;feet,&#8221; I am not aware of any traditions about female angels in antiquity.  I think that the passage is not about the displacement of patriarchal marriage in the eschatological community, but the lack of sexuality and sexual difference.  And it turns out that is exactly how ancient Christians interpreted it.<br />
That is not to say that ESF&#8217;s reading isn&#8217;t a perfectly acceptable one, and one that I think Mormonism can appropriate because we accept that sexual difference persists, and because I don&#8217;t see much need for patriarchal marriage in heaven, at least not in a way that resembles first century Judean notions of patriarchal marriage.  But that is not to say that this is &#8220;what it means.&#8221;  (Though there are some complicated hermeneutical moves that ESF makes to be able to make that kind of claim.)</p>
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		<title>By: sister blah 2</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11596</link>
		<dc:creator>sister blah 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 19:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11596</guid>
		<description>Oops make that interesting (typing on cell phone = not easy)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops make that interesting (typing on cell phone = not easy)</p>
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		<title>By: sister blah 2</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11595</link>
		<dc:creator>sister blah 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 19:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11595</guid>
		<description>This is very interedting, thanks TYD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very interedting, thanks TYD.</p>
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		<title>By: m&#38;m</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11593</link>
		<dc:creator>m&#38;m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 18:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11593</guid>
		<description>TYD, I think I&#039;m probably a combination, sort of. :)

And I, too, am sorry for the threadjack. Again, thanks for the interesting article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TYD, I think I&#8217;m probably a combination, sort of. <img src='http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And I, too, am sorry for the threadjack. Again, thanks for the interesting article.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs. Mornis</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11591</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs. Mornis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11591</guid>
		<description>Interesting evaluation. I think I get what you&#039;re trying to say. Although it brings up further theological investigation by asking questions like, “why marriage in the first place?&quot; and &quot;what are the parameters of angles in heaven and can they marry?&quot;. My understanding of the purpose for marriage here on earth is to replicate God&#039;s plan for creating us in HIS image. God exists in three parts and is in constant community. The first time we see God say in Genesis, &quot;...it was not good&quot; is when God addresses Adam&#039;s loneliness. So, Husband + Wife + Holy Spirit... and whalla! We have our closest replication of the trinity here on earth (minus the fallen part of course). Once we are in Heaven, we are told we will be face to face with God. Therefore, is it really necessary to continue marriage?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting evaluation. I think I get what you&#8217;re trying to say. Although it brings up further theological investigation by asking questions like, “why marriage in the first place?&#8221; and &#8220;what are the parameters of angles in heaven and can they marry?&#8221;. My understanding of the purpose for marriage here on earth is to replicate God&#8217;s plan for creating us in HIS image. God exists in three parts and is in constant community. The first time we see God say in Genesis, &#8220;&#8230;it was not good&#8221; is when God addresses Adam&#8217;s loneliness. So, Husband + Wife + Holy Spirit&#8230; and whalla! We have our closest replication of the trinity here on earth (minus the fallen part of course). Once we are in Heaven, we are told we will be face to face with God. Therefore, is it really necessary to continue marriage?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/a-feminist-interpretation-of-jesus-sayings-concerning-no-marriage-in-heaven/#comment-11587</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 15:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2021#comment-11587</guid>
		<description>m&amp;m,

I think that equality is being oversimplified. However, it does appear that we are on different ends of this spectrum. My problem is not with the idea that the genders are different, be the traditional vocabulary and paradigm used to classify and define those differences.

TYD,
Sorry for the threadjack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>m&amp;m,</p>
<p>I think that equality is being oversimplified. However, it does appear that we are on different ends of this spectrum. My problem is not with the idea that the genders are different, be the traditional vocabulary and paradigm used to classify and define those differences.</p>
<p>TYD,<br />
Sorry for the threadjack.</p>
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