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	<title>Comments on: Nibley was smarter than you!!</title>
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	<description>exploring Mormon thought, culture, and texts</description>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-12314</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-12314</guid>
		<description>Sorry to lurk, but I&#039;ll throw in some anecdotes and let you accept them as you will: my maternal grandfather taught at BYU at the same time Nibley was there. My grandfather had little respect for Nibley as a scholar. He felt that Nibley was sloppy with his research, tended to pick and choose haphazardly from sources and was poor at sourcing references (my grandfather felt that this was a combination of just being sloppy, but also so Nibley couldn&#039;t be pinned down with some of his more fantastical claims.)

I didn&#039;t know any of this until about ten years ago when I read one of Nibley&#039;s early books and made some extremely critical comments to my mother about it. She just laughed and said my grandfather would have agreed with me and related the above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to lurk, but I&#8217;ll throw in some anecdotes and let you accept them as you will: my maternal grandfather taught at BYU at the same time Nibley was there. My grandfather had little respect for Nibley as a scholar. He felt that Nibley was sloppy with his research, tended to pick and choose haphazardly from sources and was poor at sourcing references (my grandfather felt that this was a combination of just being sloppy, but also so Nibley couldn&#8217;t be pinned down with some of his more fantastical claims.)</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know any of this until about ten years ago when I read one of Nibley&#8217;s early books and made some extremely critical comments to my mother about it. She just laughed and said my grandfather would have agreed with me and related the above.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10964</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10964</guid>
		<description>Jacob, having been in a few Nibley classes I can say I&#039;d have a hard time calling him a good teacher of a subject.  However he knew so much and has so many original thoughts that he was amazing to listen to.  I think those interested in Nibley learn so much that they miss that as a &lt;i&gt;teacher&lt;/i&gt; he had pretty significant weaknesses.  Most of his classes were just lectures with no feedback from the class, no way for a student to know what they were supposed to know or how they were doing and so forth.  Perhaps more akin to a certain view of education.  And I&#039;m not knocking that.  But it&#039;s not really teaching as I understand it.  More a resource students could make use of if they were up for it.

Maybe he was different in his prime in the 50&#039;s and 60&#039;s in how he taught though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, having been in a few Nibley classes I can say I&#8217;d have a hard time calling him a good teacher of a subject.  However he knew so much and has so many original thoughts that he was amazing to listen to.  I think those interested in Nibley learn so much that they miss that as a <i>teacher</i> he had pretty significant weaknesses.  Most of his classes were just lectures with no feedback from the class, no way for a student to know what they were supposed to know or how they were doing and so forth.  Perhaps more akin to a certain view of education.  And I&#8217;m not knocking that.  But it&#8217;s not really teaching as I understand it.  More a resource students could make use of if they were up for it.</p>
<p>Maybe he was different in his prime in the 50&#8242;s and 60&#8242;s in how he taught though.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10963</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10963</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;However, McConkie didn’t seem to be able to overcome himself, his pride nor his prejudices, resulting in a plethora of opinionated misinterpretations and uninspired statements that still pollute his good work and unfortunately the minds of good LDS men and women all over the world.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sadly, Manuel, I think that describes Nibley as well.  I think McConkie produced some key theological works which are amazingly insightful - usually with the insights put in vague language in a fashion very similar to Nibley and with a very similar topic.  Reread his New Testament Commentary realizing that, like Nibley, he is really speaking about the temple and rites of the temple in ways not openly spoken of in the 20th century.  It &quot;appears&quot; to be a NT commentary but is loosely connected to it much like a lot of Nibley&#039;s commentary is.  (Think &lt;i&gt;Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri&lt;/i&gt;)

While a lot of people oppose Nibley to McConkie what always stands out to me when I read them is how &lt;i&gt;similiar&lt;/i&gt; they are in technique, style and focus.  Yes Nibley is an ancient studies professor and McConkie a lawyer.  But beyond how those disciplines lead them to comport themselves to the topic the parallels are really quite astounding.  And frankly the weaknesses are pretty similar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>However, McConkie didn’t seem to be able to overcome himself, his pride nor his prejudices, resulting in a plethora of opinionated misinterpretations and uninspired statements that still pollute his good work and unfortunately the minds of good LDS men and women all over the world.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Sadly, Manuel, I think that describes Nibley as well.  I think McConkie produced some key theological works which are amazingly insightful &#8211; usually with the insights put in vague language in a fashion very similar to Nibley and with a very similar topic.  Reread his New Testament Commentary realizing that, like Nibley, he is really speaking about the temple and rites of the temple in ways not openly spoken of in the 20th century.  It &#8220;appears&#8221; to be a NT commentary but is loosely connected to it much like a lot of Nibley&#8217;s commentary is.  (Think <i>Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>)</p>
<p>While a lot of people oppose Nibley to McConkie what always stands out to me when I read them is how <i>similiar</i> they are in technique, style and focus.  Yes Nibley is an ancient studies professor and McConkie a lawyer.  But beyond how those disciplines lead them to comport themselves to the topic the parallels are really quite astounding.  And frankly the weaknesses are pretty similar.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10958</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 17:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10958</guid>
		<description>smallaxe, I think it would have been gospel doctrine teacher.  Which is to say, you&#039;re right, he was quite an anomaly that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smallaxe, I think it would have been gospel doctrine teacher.  Which is to say, you&#8217;re right, he was quite an anomaly that way.</p>
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		<title>By: smallaxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10910</link>
		<dc:creator>smallaxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 18:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10910</guid>
		<description>Sorry to reveal my ignorance of Nibley, but what was the &quot;highest&quot; ecclesiastical calling he had? He seems to be one of the few intellectuals that are given respect within Mormonism that doesn&#039;t seem to be attached with a leadership role in the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to reveal my ignorance of Nibley, but what was the &#8220;highest&#8221; ecclesiastical calling he had? He seems to be one of the few intellectuals that are given respect within Mormonism that doesn&#8217;t seem to be attached with a leadership role in the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10882</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 00:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10882</guid>
		<description>Jacob, lol.  No, I haven&#039;t been in any conversations on this topic, at least not that I can remember.  I do see this theme come up frequently when I poke around though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, lol.  No, I haven&#8217;t been in any conversations on this topic, at least not that I can remember.  I do see this theme come up frequently when I poke around though.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10876</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 22:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10876</guid>
		<description>Am I to infer from the post that someone had the audacity and stupidity to tell TT that Nibley is smarter than him?  Foolish Nibleyphiles.

I&#039;m with Kevin, though.  Despite all of the very valid criticism of Nibley&#039;s various works, I think one can hardly overestimate his impact on Mormon scholarship and I believe a lot of that impact was for the better.  As a person, Nibley seems to have been a genuine disciple.  I agree with the basic point of the post, but I still love Nibley.  Oh, and one thing I rarely hear people complain about is that Nibley must be one of the worst teachers ever.  So add that to the stuff in your pipe before you light up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I to infer from the post that someone had the audacity and stupidity to tell TT that Nibley is smarter than him?  Foolish Nibleyphiles.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with Kevin, though.  Despite all of the very valid criticism of Nibley&#8217;s various works, I think one can hardly overestimate his impact on Mormon scholarship and I believe a lot of that impact was for the better.  As a person, Nibley seems to have been a genuine disciple.  I agree with the basic point of the post, but I still love Nibley.  Oh, and one thing I rarely hear people complain about is that Nibley must be one of the worst teachers ever.  So add that to the stuff in your pipe before you light up.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10874</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 22:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10874</guid>
		<description>Clark: When I said that &quot;he does not provide a theory, methodology, or system of thought to build upon&quot; (in #3) I had his social/political thought in mind. This is, of course, the stuff I like about Nibley, it just has limitations. Heck, his &quot;naive&quot; view of economics is the thing I like most about him. :)

When it comes to his &quot;scriptural exegesis,&quot; I have little to say, that is not my cup of tea (though I troll around here anyways). I really could not say one way or the other. But I think that you are getting the the heart of the matter. As a figure in the history of Mormon intellectual thought, we should not discount his contributions. Yet, we should also move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark: When I said that &#8220;he does not provide a theory, methodology, or system of thought to build upon&#8221; (in #3) I had his social/political thought in mind. This is, of course, the stuff I like about Nibley, it just has limitations. Heck, his &#8220;naive&#8221; view of economics is the thing I like most about him. <img src='http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>When it comes to his &#8220;scriptural exegesis,&#8221; I have little to say, that is not my cup of tea (though I troll around here anyways). I really could not say one way or the other. But I think that you are getting the the heart of the matter. As a figure in the history of Mormon intellectual thought, we should not discount his contributions. Yet, we should also move on.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10870</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 20:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10870</guid>
		<description>To add, one problem with Nibley stuff is that there is a lot of stuff published in his Complete Works that was never intended for publication.  Then there are the embarrassing stuff (Tinkling Cymbals).  Even his good stuff is, of course dated.  But I think he does offer some arguments and positions that have held up better.  

The problem is that a lot of people pick up his works thinking it is all stuff that has stood the test of time whereas a lot simply has not.  Ironically he&#039;s at his strongest and most relevant on the more polemical political and moral works.  (Even though there I often disagree with him more - I think he adopts a naive economic view for instance)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add, one problem with Nibley stuff is that there is a lot of stuff published in his Complete Works that was never intended for publication.  Then there are the embarrassing stuff (Tinkling Cymbals).  Even his good stuff is, of course dated.  But I think he does offer some arguments and positions that have held up better.  </p>
<p>The problem is that a lot of people pick up his works thinking it is all stuff that has stood the test of time whereas a lot simply has not.  Ironically he&#8217;s at his strongest and most relevant on the more polemical political and moral works.  (Even though there I often disagree with him more &#8211; I think he adopts a naive economic view for instance)</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/05/nibley-was-smarter-than-you/#comment-10869</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 20:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1974#comment-10869</guid>
		<description>Chris, while I agree completely with what most have said I think it incorrect to say Nibley offered nothing to build upon.  While I&#039;ve been critical of his structuralism (characteristic of 40&#039;s though the 60&#039;s scholarship) the fact is that aspects of structuralism &lt;i&gt;combined with a healthy recognition of limits&lt;/i&gt; is immensely helpful for Mormon scholarship.  While we may dispute what studies are or aren&#039;t relevant, I think the comparitive structuralism using ancient and especially Jewish structures to examine the Book of Mormon has been tremendously helpful.  The change in focus he offered by focusing in on diffusion was groundbreaking in LDS theology and thought.  While looking back we can see it was quite limited and Nibley frequently overstated his case, that basic approach has been something that has been built up.

Yet a lot of these elements are just part and parcel of scholarly thinking.  And in a way Nibley just introduced such things to LDS theology and scriptural exegesis.  But the influence probably can&#039;t be overstated.  I also think he offers an interesting middle ground between those who tend to discount all scriptural history and those who adopt a naive literalism.  Instead we have Nibley who adopts a quasi-literalism but sees it as reflecting the author&#039;s limited perspective.  While I think Nibley still overstated literalism, that move to perspectivism (rather than a God&#039;s eye view) still offers the strongest basis for a more &quot;conservative&quot; approach to scripture.  (i.e. that doesn&#039;t attempt to just de-mythologize everything by treating it as fiction)  This enabled Nibley to take seriously a lot without going too far the other direction.

I think that is the only basis for taking the scriptures seriously - especially theologically.  Otherwise they simply lose a lot of their authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, while I agree completely with what most have said I think it incorrect to say Nibley offered nothing to build upon.  While I&#8217;ve been critical of his structuralism (characteristic of 40&#8242;s though the 60&#8242;s scholarship) the fact is that aspects of structuralism <i>combined with a healthy recognition of limits</i> is immensely helpful for Mormon scholarship.  While we may dispute what studies are or aren&#8217;t relevant, I think the comparitive structuralism using ancient and especially Jewish structures to examine the Book of Mormon has been tremendously helpful.  The change in focus he offered by focusing in on diffusion was groundbreaking in LDS theology and thought.  While looking back we can see it was quite limited and Nibley frequently overstated his case, that basic approach has been something that has been built up.</p>
<p>Yet a lot of these elements are just part and parcel of scholarly thinking.  And in a way Nibley just introduced such things to LDS theology and scriptural exegesis.  But the influence probably can&#8217;t be overstated.  I also think he offers an interesting middle ground between those who tend to discount all scriptural history and those who adopt a naive literalism.  Instead we have Nibley who adopts a quasi-literalism but sees it as reflecting the author&#8217;s limited perspective.  While I think Nibley still overstated literalism, that move to perspectivism (rather than a God&#8217;s eye view) still offers the strongest basis for a more &#8220;conservative&#8221; approach to scripture.  (i.e. that doesn&#8217;t attempt to just de-mythologize everything by treating it as fiction)  This enabled Nibley to take seriously a lot without going too far the other direction.</p>
<p>I think that is the only basis for taking the scriptures seriously &#8211; especially theologically.  Otherwise they simply lose a lot of their authority.</p>
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