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	<title>Comments on: The Mormon Rawls Project: The Original Position and the Council in Heaven I</title>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22688</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22688</guid>
		<description>Emma,

No it does not. I am not arguing that the council and the original position are the exact same things, instead I am arguing that they are similar forms of philosophical justification. I partially address your point in #12 (as well as 13, 14, and 15. However, knowing that they had a religious calling does not mean that they knew they  &quot;would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed...&quot; Additionally, there is no way to know (I do not think so, at least) whether said foreordination took place before or after the council. I am also assuming (and we will likely part ways) that the concept of the council and these verses about foreordination are very much symbolic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emma,</p>
<p>No it does not. I am not arguing that the council and the original position are the exact same things, instead I am arguing that they are similar forms of philosophical justification. I partially address your point in #12 (as well as 13, 14, and 15. However, knowing that they had a religious calling does not mean that they knew they  &#8220;would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed&#8230;&#8221; Additionally, there is no way to know (I do not think so, at least) whether said foreordination took place before or after the council. I am also assuming (and we will likely part ways) that the concept of the council and these verses about foreordination are very much symbolic.</p>
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		<title>By: EmmaNadine</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22632</link>
		<dc:creator>EmmaNadine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22632</guid>
		<description>You wrote: &lt;i&gt;However, I do not think at the time of the council that they knew where they would place in those conditions. They chose agency without knowing whether they would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed, or even when they would come to earth.&lt;/i&gt;

How does this work with the idea of foreordination?  I copied this from the &lt;i&gt;True to the Faith&lt;/i&gt; manual: 
Jesus Christ was foreordained to carry out the Atonement, becoming &quot;the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,&quot; (Revelation 13:8; see also 1 Peter 1:19–21). The scriptures tell of others who were foreordained. The prophet Abraham learned about his foreordination when he received a vision in which he saw &quot;many of the noble and great ones&quot; among the spirits in the premortal spirit world. He said: &quot;God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born&quot; (Abraham 3:22–23). The Lord told Jeremiah, &quot;Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations&quot; (Jeremiah 1:5). John the Baptist was foreordained to prepare the people for the Savior&#039;s mortal ministry (see Isaiah 40:3; Luke 1:13–17; 1 Nephi 10:7–10).

The doctrine of foreordination applies to all members of the Church, not just to the Savior and His prophets. Before the creation of the earth, faithful women were given certain responsibilities and faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood duties. As people prove themselves worthy, they will be given opportunities to fulfill the assignments they then received. 

Doesn&#039;t that argue against the point you were making?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wrote: <i>However, I do not think at the time of the council that they knew where they would place in those conditions. They chose agency without knowing whether they would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed, or even when they would come to earth.</i></p>
<p>How does this work with the idea of foreordination?  I copied this from the <i>True to the Faith</i> manual:<br />
Jesus Christ was foreordained to carry out the Atonement, becoming &#8220;the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,&#8221; (Revelation 13:8; see also 1 Peter 1:19–21). The scriptures tell of others who were foreordained. The prophet Abraham learned about his foreordination when he received a vision in which he saw &#8220;many of the noble and great ones&#8221; among the spirits in the premortal spirit world. He said: &#8220;God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born&#8221; (Abraham 3:22–23). The Lord told Jeremiah, &#8220;Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations&#8221; (Jeremiah 1:5). John the Baptist was foreordained to prepare the people for the Savior&#8217;s mortal ministry (see Isaiah 40:3; Luke 1:13–17; 1 Nephi 10:7–10).</p>
<p>The doctrine of foreordination applies to all members of the Church, not just to the Savior and His prophets. Before the creation of the earth, faithful women were given certain responsibilities and faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood duties. As people prove themselves worthy, they will be given opportunities to fulfill the assignments they then received. </p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t that argue against the point you were making?</p>
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		<title>By: Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22582</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22582</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the replies, Chris. Interesting stuff. I don&#039;t have a lot of time to reply right now. But I think this is good: 

&quot;Yet, the construct is used as a form of moral justification.&quot;

I think one of the powerful things about the preexistence is how it functions as theodicy. I remember on my mission a guy said &quot;How can God hold me responsible; I didn&#039;t ask to be born.&quot; Which then prompted a discussion of the preexistence. There is something about the idea of participating in the plannng and purposes of earth life that make the whole program more palatable and justifiable. It seems Rawls was tapping into that same need for preexistent choice and planning as a way of envision a more just society. It beats the secular and traditional Christian notion of having been created at birth and  thrust into a mess with no choice or concept regarding what we were getting into.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the replies, Chris. Interesting stuff. I don&#8217;t have a lot of time to reply right now. But I think this is good: </p>
<p>&#8220;Yet, the construct is used as a form of moral justification.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think one of the powerful things about the preexistence is how it functions as theodicy. I remember on my mission a guy said &#8220;How can God hold me responsible; I didn&#8217;t ask to be born.&#8221; Which then prompted a discussion of the preexistence. There is something about the idea of participating in the plannng and purposes of earth life that make the whole program more palatable and justifiable. It seems Rawls was tapping into that same need for preexistent choice and planning as a way of envision a more just society. It beats the secular and traditional Christian notion of having been created at birth and  thrust into a mess with no choice or concept regarding what we were getting into.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22387</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22387</guid>
		<description>“Rawls has the veil drawn across the future, and for us the veil refers to our ignorance of the preexistence. In fact, we believe we knew a lot more in the preexistence about our future earth life than we currently know about the preexistence. The ignorance is definitely retrospective, not forward looking.”

This is important and I am glad you brought it up (not bad for an English major). I am assuming that the participants in the council in heaven may have known about the condition of earth existence. However, I do not think at the time of the council that they knew where they would place in those conditions. They chose agency without knowing whether they would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed, or even when they would come to earth. They may have known about these hardships but I do not think they would known exactly what particular hardship they themselves would face. This is similar to the veil of ignorance in the original position in that the participants are not completely ignorant; instead they are ignorant of their own particular station in life. The veil, as we call it, that keeps us from recalling the preexistence is not a big part of my argument, though it might connect LDS thinking to early forms of social contract thinking (Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau) whereby an actual contract is entered into by citizens long ago which we have no record or knowledge of actually happening. That will have to wait for a future day.

It is fun to get this out. I have been thinking about this stuff forever. Sheldon, and everyone else, please ask follow up questions or clarification questions. I am also up for advice on ways to better articulate some of these LDS themes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Rawls has the veil drawn across the future, and for us the veil refers to our ignorance of the preexistence. In fact, we believe we knew a lot more in the preexistence about our future earth life than we currently know about the preexistence. The ignorance is definitely retrospective, not forward looking.”</p>
<p>This is important and I am glad you brought it up (not bad for an English major). I am assuming that the participants in the council in heaven may have known about the condition of earth existence. However, I do not think at the time of the council that they knew where they would place in those conditions. They chose agency without knowing whether they would be rich or poor, powerful or oppressed, or even when they would come to earth. They may have known about these hardships but I do not think they would known exactly what particular hardship they themselves would face. This is similar to the veil of ignorance in the original position in that the participants are not completely ignorant; instead they are ignorant of their own particular station in life. The veil, as we call it, that keeps us from recalling the preexistence is not a big part of my argument, though it might connect LDS thinking to early forms of social contract thinking (Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau) whereby an actual contract is entered into by citizens long ago which we have no record or knowledge of actually happening. That will have to wait for a future day.</p>
<p>It is fun to get this out. I have been thinking about this stuff forever. Sheldon, and everyone else, please ask follow up questions or clarification questions. I am also up for advice on ways to better articulate some of these LDS themes.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22386</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22386</guid>
		<description>“It seems Rawls hypothetical OP people and our preexistent spirits are up to completely different things in that state.”

I am not denying that they have major differences. However, in form, they have similarities. In addition, Mormons think of the council, and rhetorically use it, in a way very similar to the way that Rawlsians use the Original Position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“It seems Rawls hypothetical OP people and our preexistent spirits are up to completely different things in that state.”</p>
<p>I am not denying that they have major differences. However, in form, they have similarities. In addition, Mormons think of the council, and rhetorically use it, in a way very similar to the way that Rawlsians use the Original Position.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22385</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22385</guid>
		<description>“Is there anything in LDS thought to suggest the council in heaven was concerned with ensuring a just distribution of wealth and power?”
No. The point is that the council and the original position both seek to establish (rather abstract) principles that govern aspects of humen existence. In addition, both represent a form of philosophical constructivism since we either do not remember the event, or it is hypothetical. Yet, the construct is used as a form of moral justification. As to the idea of just distribution or equality, the Book of Mormon does that for me (more later).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Is there anything in LDS thought to suggest the council in heaven was concerned with ensuring a just distribution of wealth and power?”<br />
No. The point is that the council and the original position both seek to establish (rather abstract) principles that govern aspects of humen existence. In addition, both represent a form of philosophical constructivism since we either do not remember the event, or it is hypothetical. Yet, the construct is used as a form of moral justification. As to the idea of just distribution or equality, the Book of Mormon does that for me (more later).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22384</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22384</guid>
		<description>As for the idea of merit-based placement on earth, I completely reject it. All who came to earth existed with God and sided with him in the council (this ties into my response to Emma above). Those who claim that they where born in the US, in the Church, or in wealth because of some sort of valiance in the pre-existence are looking for reasons to be prideful about things which they have no evidence of actually having done. I tend to think that we come here with equal more worth. This could be explained further I am sure. Rawls reject the idea of desert. In other words, he rejects the idea that somehow some people deserve their place in society or wealth (either positive or negative) because of some moral or natural reason. This is actually the area that first attracted me to Rawls (it is also similar to Nibley&#039;s critique of 1970s and 1980s greed which I came across after Rawls). This ultimately is very much at the heart of Rawls&#039; view of distributive justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the idea of merit-based placement on earth, I completely reject it. All who came to earth existed with God and sided with him in the council (this ties into my response to Emma above). Those who claim that they where born in the US, in the Church, or in wealth because of some sort of valiance in the pre-existence are looking for reasons to be prideful about things which they have no evidence of actually having done. I tend to think that we come here with equal more worth. This could be explained further I am sure. Rawls reject the idea of desert. In other words, he rejects the idea that somehow some people deserve their place in society or wealth (either positive or negative) because of some moral or natural reason. This is actually the area that first attracted me to Rawls (it is also similar to Nibley&#8217;s critique of 1970s and 1980s greed which I came across after Rawls). This ultimately is very much at the heart of Rawls&#8217; view of distributive justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22383</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22383</guid>
		<description>Sheldon,

Let me see if I can cover all of your points. Thanks for bringing them up. I will brake this up into multiple comments for organization purposes.

&quot;I’m curious to know what you will do with the concepts of foreordination and merit based placement on earth.&quot;

I am not completely sure about foreordination. I tend to view the idea of the noble and greats one found in Abraham as referring to those who have become knows as the noble and great one in our earthly narrative and do not think that they must be viewed as somehow more noble and great in the pre-existence. This is not to say that we did not come here for a purpose, but I also think that is largely a shared purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheldon,</p>
<p>Let me see if I can cover all of your points. Thanks for bringing them up. I will brake this up into multiple comments for organization purposes.</p>
<p>&#8220;I’m curious to know what you will do with the concepts of foreordination and merit based placement on earth.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am not completely sure about foreordination. I tend to view the idea of the noble and greats one found in Abraham as referring to those who have become knows as the noble and great one in our earthly narrative and do not think that they must be viewed as somehow more noble and great in the pre-existence. This is not to say that we did not come here for a purpose, but I also think that is largely a shared purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22333</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22333</guid>
		<description>Brad,
Right. I was just wondering if Chris would expand on discussing the similarities and differences between the Mormon use of the idea of preexistence and Rawls use of the idea. That&#039;s probably for one of his future posts.

Beyond the idea of &quot;people existing before the world,&quot; I&#039;m straining to see similarities. It seems Rawls hypothetical OP people and our preexistent spirits are up to completely different things in that state. Furthermore, the  states of ignorance that the veil is veiling are exactly opposite. Rawls has the veil drawn across the future, and for us the veil refers to our ignorance of the preexistence. In fact, we believe we knew a lot more in the preexistence about our future earth life than we currently know about the preexistence. The ignorance is definitely retrospective, not forward looking. 

I think there&#039;s a lot of cool stuff for this project, I&#039;m just curious to see where Chris take is from here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,<br />
Right. I was just wondering if Chris would expand on discussing the similarities and differences between the Mormon use of the idea of preexistence and Rawls use of the idea. That&#8217;s probably for one of his future posts.</p>
<p>Beyond the idea of &#8220;people existing before the world,&#8221; I&#8217;m straining to see similarities. It seems Rawls hypothetical OP people and our preexistent spirits are up to completely different things in that state. Furthermore, the  states of ignorance that the veil is veiling are exactly opposite. Rawls has the veil drawn across the future, and for us the veil refers to our ignorance of the preexistence. In fact, we believe we knew a lot more in the preexistence about our future earth life than we currently know about the preexistence. The ignorance is definitely retrospective, not forward looking. </p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s a lot of cool stuff for this project, I&#8217;m just curious to see where Chris take is from here.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/the-mormon-rawls-project-the-original-position-and-the-council-in-heaven-i/#comment-22317</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2396#comment-22317</guid>
		<description>Sheldon, 
The point of the original position/veil of ignorance is not establishing the just distribution of wealth or power for its own sake.  The point is that a relative just distribution of wealth is a byproduct of individuals trying to maximize their own utility from the OP/behind the V of I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheldon,<br />
The point of the original position/veil of ignorance is not establishing the just distribution of wealth or power for its own sake.  The point is that a relative just distribution of wealth is a byproduct of individuals trying to maximize their own utility from the OP/behind the V of I.</p>
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