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	<title>Comments on: Why Margaret Barker is Right</title>
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	<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/</link>
	<description>exploring Mormon thought, culture, and texts</description>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-34634</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-34634</guid>
		<description>Rey, I admit that not a single thing that you&#039;ve said strikes me as obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rey, I admit that not a single thing that you&#8217;ve said strikes me as obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: rey</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-34531</link>
		<dc:creator>rey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-34531</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how you can read the Bible and not see that Barker&#039;s history is clearly more historical.  For that matter how come people don&#039;t connect the Recabites who had a command from their father to never build a house or plant a vineyard or drink wine with the 40 year wandering in the wilderness.  Yes we are told the Jews wandered 40 years because God got mad that they didn&#039;t have the guts to go commit genocide against the Canaanites right away.  But isn&#039;t it more likely that Moses&#039; Law originally contained Recabite-like instructions to dwell in the dessert as nomads, and that they tried it for 40 years and just got bored of it?  After all, the Law says not to covet your neighbor&#039;s land, not to steal, not to kill.  How could the same lawgiver teach not to covet your neighbor&#039;s land, not to steal and then tell you to covet the Canaanite&#039;s land, to steal it, and to kill them?  Is it not obvious that what we read now is not historical, that what really happened is after 40 years they got bored of Moses&#039; law and changed it to suit their greedy desires?  Its a big duh, but people are too stupid to see that conquering Canaan was never originally part of the plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how you can read the Bible and not see that Barker&#8217;s history is clearly more historical.  For that matter how come people don&#8217;t connect the Recabites who had a command from their father to never build a house or plant a vineyard or drink wine with the 40 year wandering in the wilderness.  Yes we are told the Jews wandered 40 years because God got mad that they didn&#8217;t have the guts to go commit genocide against the Canaanites right away.  But isn&#8217;t it more likely that Moses&#8217; Law originally contained Recabite-like instructions to dwell in the dessert as nomads, and that they tried it for 40 years and just got bored of it?  After all, the Law says not to covet your neighbor&#8217;s land, not to steal, not to kill.  How could the same lawgiver teach not to covet your neighbor&#8217;s land, not to steal and then tell you to covet the Canaanite&#8217;s land, to steal it, and to kill them?  Is it not obvious that what we read now is not historical, that what really happened is after 40 years they got bored of Moses&#8217; law and changed it to suit their greedy desires?  Its a big duh, but people are too stupid to see that conquering Canaan was never originally part of the plan.</p>
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		<title>By: mondocool</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-24039</link>
		<dc:creator>mondocool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-24039</guid>
		<description>Barker is not &quot;trained for the ministry;&quot; i.e., no PhD, and, therefore, suspect. Let us all remember,  the &quot;method&quot; is the ultimate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barker is not &#8220;trained for the ministry;&#8221; i.e., no PhD, and, therefore, suspect. Let us all remember,  the &#8220;method&#8221; is the ultimate.</p>
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		<title>By: jupiterschild</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23532</link>
		<dc:creator>jupiterschild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23532</guid>
		<description>Matt W.: Thanks for commenting. smallaxe said well what I was getting at with the post. To be fair, I should say that I&#039;m coming from a school of thought that is less than optimistic about our ability to recover history &quot;as it actually was&quot; (as Leopold von Ranke famously put it (&quot;wie es eigentlich gewesen&quot;)). 

A good analogy might also be made to the reconstruction of a crime, where the prosecution is at least theoretically committed to discovering what &quot;actually&quot; happened. A friend of mine is a prosecutor, and he says it&#039;s a common occurrence to find himself telling an eyewitness that they (the prosecution) have a better knowledge of what happened than the eyewitness. This is because they are making sense of multiple streams of narrative, privileging some, suppressing others, and ultimately coming up with their own narrative that usually takes into account more information than any one witness could perceive at one time. But theirs is still one narrative among many, and, clearly, it&#039;s still fairly uncertain. So I wouldn&#039;t negate the idea of some &quot;actual reality&quot; as much as I would our ability to get at it--even our supposition of a reality is heavily dependent on our own assumptions, biases, etc. that make it theoretically impossible to describe. The fact that we try to, however, is the interesting thing for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt W.: Thanks for commenting. smallaxe said well what I was getting at with the post. To be fair, I should say that I&#8217;m coming from a school of thought that is less than optimistic about our ability to recover history &#8220;as it actually was&#8221; (as Leopold von Ranke famously put it (&#8220;wie es eigentlich gewesen&#8221;)). </p>
<p>A good analogy might also be made to the reconstruction of a crime, where the prosecution is at least theoretically committed to discovering what &#8220;actually&#8221; happened. A friend of mine is a prosecutor, and he says it&#8217;s a common occurrence to find himself telling an eyewitness that they (the prosecution) have a better knowledge of what happened than the eyewitness. This is because they are making sense of multiple streams of narrative, privileging some, suppressing others, and ultimately coming up with their own narrative that usually takes into account more information than any one witness could perceive at one time. But theirs is still one narrative among many, and, clearly, it&#8217;s still fairly uncertain. So I wouldn&#8217;t negate the idea of some &#8220;actual reality&#8221; as much as I would our ability to get at it&#8211;even our supposition of a reality is heavily dependent on our own assumptions, biases, etc. that make it theoretically impossible to describe. The fact that we try to, however, is the interesting thing for me.</p>
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		<title>By: smallaxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23514</link>
		<dc:creator>smallaxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23514</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; I think I was pretty clear when I said history to be actual has to have occured within reality. The people performing the history have to do real things, and the things they’ve done have to actually have been done by them. I am not sure what your motivations are in stating otherwise. &lt;/i&gt;

If I&#039;m reading JC correctly, his motivation isn&#039;t to deny such a thing as &quot;real history&quot;, but rather 1) Reflect on our (limited) ability to describe real history. 2) Question how &#039;meaning&#039; is generated by doing what people claim as real history versus doing self-confessing fiction.

One could argue, for instance, that our ability to describe real history is very limited due to the complexities constantly involved in any situation; but since the process of creating meaning in our lives tends to be the same regardless of how &quot;real&quot; the description is, we shouldn&#039;t fret about certain kinds of inaccuracies. For example, a story that recounts a &quot;real&quot; event of LDSs stocking up on food storage and then needing it in time of a disaster, may be just as meaningful as Aesop&#039;s fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, as the hearers of both stories would inspired toward the same end--don&#039;t wait to prepare. This paradigm basically claims that the &quot;truth&quot; of any situation is less important than the outcome of hearing about the situation, and justifies it on the basis that truth is too difficult to discover in the first place. 

Personally I&#039;m not sure where I stand in relation to the paradigm described above, but I do think it&#039;s worth taking it seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> I think I was pretty clear when I said history to be actual has to have occured within reality. The people performing the history have to do real things, and the things they’ve done have to actually have been done by them. I am not sure what your motivations are in stating otherwise. </i></p>
<p>If I&#8217;m reading JC correctly, his motivation isn&#8217;t to deny such a thing as &#8220;real history&#8221;, but rather 1) Reflect on our (limited) ability to describe real history. 2) Question how &#8216;meaning&#8217; is generated by doing what people claim as real history versus doing self-confessing fiction.</p>
<p>One could argue, for instance, that our ability to describe real history is very limited due to the complexities constantly involved in any situation; but since the process of creating meaning in our lives tends to be the same regardless of how &#8220;real&#8221; the description is, we shouldn&#8217;t fret about certain kinds of inaccuracies. For example, a story that recounts a &#8220;real&#8221; event of LDSs stocking up on food storage and then needing it in time of a disaster, may be just as meaningful as Aesop&#8217;s fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, as the hearers of both stories would inspired toward the same end&#8211;don&#8217;t wait to prepare. This paradigm basically claims that the &#8220;truth&#8221; of any situation is less important than the outcome of hearing about the situation, and justifies it on the basis that truth is too difficult to discover in the first place. </p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;m not sure where I stand in relation to the paradigm described above, but I do think it&#8217;s worth taking it seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23508</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23508</guid>
		<description>jupiterschild, I think I was pretty clear when I said history to be actual has to have occured within reality. The people performing the history have to do real things, and the things they&#039;ve done have to actually have been done by them. I am not sure what your motivations are in stating otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jupiterschild, I think I was pretty clear when I said history to be actual has to have occured within reality. The people performing the history have to do real things, and the things they&#8217;ve done have to actually have been done by them. I am not sure what your motivations are in stating otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23469</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>All history is inaccurate, but some histories are more inaccurate than others.  Either that or fire all the historians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All history is inaccurate, but some histories are more inaccurate than others.  Either that or fire all the historians.</p>
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		<title>By: jupiterschild</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23458</link>
		<dc:creator>jupiterschild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23458</guid>
		<description>Thanks to all for comments.

TT: What do you mean by &quot;to accept it&quot;? I hear you saying that Barker is unacceptable (to scholars?) as indicative narrative unless you believe what I have outlined above.

Blake and Matt W.: How do you define &quot;real history&quot; or &quot;actually history&quot; and is the distinction that simple? How does one tell the difference? And to what extent is the mechanism that allows one to derive value from Beowulf vs. BofM the same?

David H: Your comment raises some of the same questions I&#039;m trying to ask. What is inaccurate history? Depending on how you define it, all history is inaccurate. What may be more important is to recognize the acceptance of competing narratives and what it says about those who accept it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to all for comments.</p>
<p>TT: What do you mean by &#8220;to accept it&#8221;? I hear you saying that Barker is unacceptable (to scholars?) as indicative narrative unless you believe what I have outlined above.</p>
<p>Blake and Matt W.: How do you define &#8220;real history&#8221; or &#8220;actually history&#8221; and is the distinction that simple? How does one tell the difference? And to what extent is the mechanism that allows one to derive value from Beowulf vs. BofM the same?</p>
<p>David H: Your comment raises some of the same questions I&#8217;m trying to ask. What is inaccurate history? Depending on how you define it, all history is inaccurate. What may be more important is to recognize the acceptance of competing narratives and what it says about those who accept it.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23414</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23414</guid>
		<description>The problem comes when we have expectations of reality based upon what we have read, if it is fictional. For example, as I believe the Book of Mormon not to be inspired fiction but actually history, I have certain expectations of reality regarding my relationship with God, Jesus, and Miraculous happenings. My world view is shaped as to what is and is not possible by the Book of Mormon in ways I can not claim to be shaped by stories I clearly recognize as fiction. 

Personally, my biggest frustration with the Barker texts is that they were used heavily in the &quot;Second Witness&quot; series, weakening what is otherwise perhaps the best Book of Mormon commentary to date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem comes when we have expectations of reality based upon what we have read, if it is fictional. For example, as I believe the Book of Mormon not to be inspired fiction but actually history, I have certain expectations of reality regarding my relationship with God, Jesus, and Miraculous happenings. My world view is shaped as to what is and is not possible by the Book of Mormon in ways I can not claim to be shaped by stories I clearly recognize as fiction. </p>
<p>Personally, my biggest frustration with the Barker texts is that they were used heavily in the &#8220;Second Witness&#8221; series, weakening what is otherwise perhaps the best Book of Mormon commentary to date.</p>
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		<title>By: smallaxe</title>
		<link>http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2009/10/why-margaret-barker-is-right/#comment-23412</link>
		<dc:creator>smallaxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2441#comment-23412</guid>
		<description>For those unfamiliar with some of the problems with Barker&#039;s work see the discussion here: 

http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/02/barker-part-4/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those unfamiliar with some of the problems with Barker&#8217;s work see the discussion here: </p>
<p><a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/02/barker-part-4/" rel="nofollow">http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/02/barker-part-4/</a></p>
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